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Title: We Muslims Have Work To Do
Source:
TorontoSun,com
URL Source: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colu ... _Salim/2006/06/10/1623710.html
Published: Jun 10, 2006
Author: By SALIM MANSUR
Post Date: 2006-06-10 15:07:55 by yukon
Comments: 54
Muslim Canadians, as Muslims elsewhere in Western societies, have felt increasingly besieged for some time now, both from outside their community and from within. This sense of isolation, of being misrepresented and misunderstood, will inevitably deepen as the full story unfolds of the arrests of 17 Toronto-area Muslims on terrorism charges. But whose fault is this? Let us, Muslims, be brutally honest. We have inherited a culture of denial, of too often refusing to acknowledge our own responsibility for the widespread malaise that has left most of the Arab-Muslim countries in economic, political and social disrepair. Statistics and intergovernmental reports over the past several decades have documented a gap, perhaps now unbridgeable, between Muslim countries and the advanced industrial democracies in the West. In a recent "failed states index" published in the journal Foreign Policy (May/June 2006), Pakistan, for instance, is ranked among the top 10 failed states in the world -- ahead of Afghanistan. Pakistan is a Muslim country, a nuclear military power, but it can barely feed, clothe, educate and shelter its population. The reports on the Arab countries are a dismal catalogue of entrenched tyrannies, failing economies, squandered wealth, gender oppression, persecution of minorities and endemic violence. The cleric-led regime in Iran seeks nuclear weapons and threatens to obliterate Israel, repress domestic opposition, and seek confrontation with the West. Instead of acknowledging the reality of the Arab-Muslim world as a broken civilization, we Muslims tend to indulge instead in blaming others for our ills; deflecting our responsibilities for failures that have become breeding grounds of violence and terrorism. Many of our intellectuals in public life and our religious leaders in mosques remain adept in double-speak, saying contrary things in English or French and then in Arabic or Farsi or Urdu. We have made hypocrisy an art, and have spun for ourselves a web of lies that blinds us to the real world around us. We seethe with grievances and resentment against the West, even as we have prospered in the freedom and security of Western democracies. We have inculcated into our children false pride, and given them a sense of history that crumbles under critical scrutiny. We have burdened them with conflicting loyalties -- and now some of them have become our nightmare. We preach tolerance yet we are intolerant. We demand inclusion, yet we practise exclusion of gender, of minorities, of those with whom we disagree. We repeat endlessly that Islam is a religion of peace, yet too many of us display conduct contrary to what we profess. We keep assuring ourselves and others that Muslims who violate Islam are a minuscule minority, yet we fail to hold this minority accountable in public. A bowl of milk turns into curd with a single drop of lemon. The minuscule minority we blame is this drop of lemon that has curdled and made a shambles of our Islam, yet too many of us insist against all evidence our belief somehow sets us apart as better from others. In Islam, we insist, religion and politics are inseparable. As a result, politics dominates our religion -- and our religion has become a cover for tribalism and nationalism. We regularly quote from the Koran, but do not make repentance for our failings as the Koran instructs, by seeking forgiveness of those who we have harmed. We Muslims are the source of our own misery, and we are not misunderstood by others who see in our conduct a threat to their peace.
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#1. To: All, lito (#0)
We regularly quote from the Koran, but do not make repentance for our failings as the Koran instructs, by seeking forgiveness of those who we have harmed. We Muslims are the source of our own misery, You may want to comment on this.
Sounds like a self-hating Muslim. Islam is probably as flawed as Christianity. It bothers me when any religion influences politics in a way that is detrimental to other religions or non-believers.
I think he is an introspective and insightful Muslim. IMHO, most of us create our own misery through detrimental action or inaction.
Some would say that about 9-11.
I'm an agnostic, but your comment is just plain idiotic. Out of all the conflicts in the World today, which religion is most involved in those conflicts? Hint: It's not the Catholics, Protestants, Babtists, Calvanists, Episcapalians, Mormons, Buddists, Hindus. Which religion is responsible for the atrocities commited in Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, parts of Australia, western China, Chechnya, India, Bangledesh, Pakistan, Iran, Afganistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan...not to mention the USA...shall I go on?
Yes, some would and we know who they are and why they say it.
Every major power on this planet has a militant Islam based security problem. Every border between the Islamic world and others is a war zone. The Muslims sit in poverty atop the richest cash cow on this planet. That bespeaks a fundamental cultural inability to use wealth productively.
Which religion is responsible for the atrocities commited in Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, parts of Australia, western China, Chechnya, India, Bangledesh, Pakistan, Iran, Afganistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan...not to mention the USA...shall I go on? You mentioned a lot of Christian religions, you know Muslims have different sects as well. There may be a lot of conflict in the world right now with Islam appearing on one side or the other (or both) but historically Christianity has been responsible for a lot of conflict (really much more death and destruction). Islam is just barely catching up. It should also be noted that many of the countries you mentioned are suffering because of U.S. intervention, not because of simple religious conflict.
Except that Muslims have never really had complete control over that "cash cow." The West has always maintained control by force.
yeah..... paying the axlerods $70 a barrell really controls them like a leash
Are you really this stupid.
Maybe, GWBush shall go liberate them from thir plight. Afterall, our emperor is making nations around the world with a vision of glorious "democracy"; why not nation-building in Canada? The concept is a good thing. Just ask Karl Rove, your master/
Is it accurate to attribute these conflicts to Islam itself, or are there other more worldly reasons to explain the conflicts? I don't think so. Let's not forget the history of the West in the region. They have not had control of their resources for a significant amount of time (Iran has had control since when, about 1953? and even then they were beholden to the US). I don't know how accurate it is to conclude that Islam contains a fundamental flaw which infects those Muslims, and blame the failure of the Islamic states on that flaw. Again, other, more worldly reasons exist for the status of the Islamic world.
Do you have anything intelligent to say?
Excellent point
What impact does Western colonialism have in the region?
Trust me, the Saudi royal family and the the Bush/Cheney folks are best friends for life.
Would you care to name a ME country that the west controls?
Except it's like saying Bill Gates never really had complete control over Microsoft. Pointless. He's still a billionaire.
yeah right when the $70 stops --------- they will not be nearly as good friends
the same colonialism buying cotton from India has or bananas from Guatamala
Just ask Karl Rove, your master/ Stephen Harper and the conservatives are doing their best as we write, to make Canada a nation of which all Canadians can be proud, thank you. I have no human master. Do you?
Really ? Show me where there are Western soldiers occupying Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. Enough excuses. If the Muslim world's problems could be solved by money they would have no problems. The Muslim world's problem is that it clings to a fantasy of the 7th-9th centuries. It wants modern things but not modern societies (i.e, the emancipation of women, religious tolerance, freedom of inquiry, transparent institutions, non sectarian politics, etc). It is enraged by its self-created powerlessness because it thinks itself morally superior. The contradiction between a bloated sense of superiority and entitlement and real world powerlessness creates rage which makes Muslims everyone's enemies.
But it is mostly because their religion and thus everything is built on hate.
An important part of growth is taking responsibility for the consequences of your own actions, instead of whining and blaming the way Muslims always do. China faced Western colonialism and a devastating Japanese invasion. Where are they now ? Whining on their backs or building a future ? A great culture and a great society will always bounce back and get off the floor and come back fighting. All Muslims can do is whine and blame because they are losers. Islam has a culture of envious rage, which is how losers react to failure.
Are you serious? The U.S. is presently occupying Iraq by force. We support a non-democratic government in Saudi Arabia and maintain military bases there. We don't have troops in Iran, but we surely have CIA men there. British Petroleum used to have control of their oil, when Iran tried to take control of its own resources the U.S. helped orchestrate a coup and brought the Shah to power, later we supported Iraq in its war with Iran, now as Iran tries to use wealth and innovation to better its country we threaten attacks and isolate them globally. Yes it's all their own fault. Both Iran and Iraq used to be some of the most advanced parts of the Middle East until the West came in and started its love affair with petroleum.
Sure you do. You punched a chad for GWBush, your master warlord saving you from the boogieman.
And Gomer was the smartest in the service station in Mayberry, but he was still a Gomer.
Sure you do. I confess. I am married.
If you or any others would like to know why it's difficult, usually impossible, for Islam to be "moderate", let me know. It has to do with the dynamics of the Islamic faith and its adherents. I guarantee you'll fascinated, informed, and freed from alot of PC nonsense forever. RSVP
Iran of course was the ancient Persian kingdom which was defeated by the Greeks when it tried to crush it's despised enlightenment and extinguish its freedom - not just political freedom but freedom of thought and inquiry. If Persia had subdued the Greeks it's hard to imagine Western civilization developing as it did. Irag is the land of one of the cradles of civilization - Mesopotamia, Sumeria, etc. By the way, Mesopotamia is Greek for "between the rivers" , i.e. the Tigris and Euphrates. Having said that, there is no connection between those ancient civilizations of 5000 years ago and the inhabitants of the region today. The area was overrun by the monguls, populations changed and shifted a hundred times with the vicissitudes of history. What put the region back into the dark ages was the violent invasion of Mohammed (c.570-632) and his array of barbaric bedouin. Iran and Iraq have no more inherent cultural connection with those ancients than Mubarak of Egypt does with the pharaohs. Or the multitudes of ethnic groups that have settled, traded, migrated, relocated since those earliest days -- semitic tribes, Greeks, Romans, a gazillion commercial traders, etc. No more than Palm Beach, FL has the culture of the Seminoles.
More Muslim loser excuses. Let's take a look at them. Are you serious? The U.S. is presently occupying Iraq by force. So the Iraq of Saddam Hussein is your idea of a progressive, independent Muslim country ? So America is somehow magically responsible for your ignorant, violent culture ? We support a non-democratic government in Saudi Arabia and maintain military bases there. Where is there anything vaguely resembling a democratic government in the Muslim world ? The only fair elections that take place in the Muslim world are under the protection of American or Israeli guns. Before you can have democracy you have to have religious tolerance. Where, anywhere, in majority Muslim countries do Christians worship safely ? In Saudi Arabia there are people in prison for having crosses and Bibles. No government governing Muslims could ever be democratic because a Muslim's idea of freedom is the freedom to plant a bomb at the nearest Christian church or mosque of another sect. We don't have troops in Iran, but we surely have CIA men there. And this makes us responsible for Iran's failure ? British Petroleum used to have control of their oil, when Iran tried to take control of its own resources the U.S. helped orchestrate a coup and brought the Shah to power, later we supported Iraq in its war with Iran, now as Iran tries to use wealth and innovation to better its country we threaten attacks and isolate them globally. More blaming America for the complete incompetence and barbarism of Muslim culture. The entire Arab world except for Syria supported Iraq in its war with Iran while Iran was winning. And it would have gone on forever until we cut Iran's oil imports. When you have a murderous megalomaniac ruling one country and a messianic religious fanatic ruling another it requires geniune idiocy to blame America when they go to war. And if Iran is isolated it is because they are ruled by foaming at the mouth religious fanatics. Yes it's all their own fault. Both Iran and Iraq used to be some of the most advanced parts of the Middle East until the West came in and started its love affair with petroleum. Bilge. Take away oil and Iran and Iraq are sewers of poverty and wretchedness and disease. This is because Muslims are too proud to learn or work together for the common good and too ignorant to produce anything that is useful and too violent to be able to trust each other and develop the civil institutions that would allow democracy to exist. Kurd will never trust Sunni, Shiite will never trust Druse, Sunni will never trust Alawi because they know themselves to be vicious and untrustworthy. You can't have a democracy in a culture which has no optimism whatsoever about basic human decency and Muslims know themselves too well to have any such optimism.
Even Iran has had control for 26 years.
Excellent post! You nailed it! I only have one question - whatever happened to the Pharohs . . . .?
Are you serious? The U.S. is presently occupying Iraq by force. So the Iraq of Saddam Hussein is your idea of a progressive, independent Muslim country ? So America is somehow magically responsible for your ignorant, violent culture ? Nope. The U.S. is the greatest purveyor of violence in the Middle East. We did prop up Saddam at one time after all. We support a non-democratic government in Saudi Arabia and maintain military bases there. Where is there anything vaguely resembling a democratic government in the Muslim world ? The only fair elections that take place in the Muslim world are under the protection of American or Israeli guns. Before you can have democracy you have to have religious tolerance. Where, anywhere, in majority Muslim countries do Christians worship safely ? In Saudi Arabia there are people in prison for having crosses and Bibles. No government governing Muslims could ever be democratic because a Muslim's idea of freedom is the freedom to plant a bomb at the nearest Christian church or mosque of another sect. At various times in history there have been very advanced and tolerant societies in the Middle East. They weren't exactly "Muslim," but I've never known any government that found its right to govern through some sort of religion to be very tolerant. So yes I agree we support a lot of non-democratic countries in the Middle East, and the U.S. prefers it that way. We don't have troops in Iran, but we surely have CIA men there. And this makes us responsible for Iran's failure ? It makes us responsible for a lot of Iran's problems, but how exactly have they failed? British Petroleum used to have control of their oil, when Iran tried to take control of its own resources the U.S. helped orchestrate a coup and brought the Shah to power, later we supported Iraq in its war with Iran, now as Iran tries to use wealth and innovation to better its country we threaten attacks and isolate them globally. More blaming America for the complete incompetence and barbarism of Muslim culture. The entire Arab world except for Syria supported Iraq in its war with Iran while Iran was winning. And it would have gone on forever until we cut Iran's oil imports. When you have a murderous megalomaniac ruling one country and a messianic religious fanatic ruling another it requires geniune idiocy to blame America when they go to war. The point is we were responsible for the religious fanatic and supporting the murderous megalomaniac. If you still want to blame Islam, it's an interesting theory, but much more difficult to prove than the U.S.'s direct intervention in the region. And if Iran is isolated it is because they are ruled by foaming at the mouth religious fanatics. They foam at the mouth no less than Bush or Tony Blair. Yes it's all their own fault. Both Iran and Iraq used to be some of the most advanced parts of the Middle East until the West came in and started its love affair with petroleum. Bilge. Take away oil and Iran and Iraq are sewers of poverty and wretchedness and disease. This is because Muslims are too proud to learn or work together for the common good and too ignorant to produce anything that is useful and too violent to be able to trust each other and develop the civil institutions that would allow democracy to exist. Kurd will never trust Sunni, Shiite will never trust Druse, Sunni will never trust Alawi because they know themselves to be vicious and untrustworthy. You can't have a democracy in a culture which has no optimism whatsoever about basic human decency and Muslims know themselves too well to have any such optimism. And the West has benefited from stiring up this kind of hatred among groups. I'm not saying that the people in the Middle East have no blame for any of the negative aspects of their countries and communities, but the U.S. has done a tremendous amount of damage to the region and continues to interfere in ways that are having devastating and long-lasting affects on the people in the region. To blame it on something inherent in the people or the religion is ignorant.
Most of them were mummified.
I commented on your photos elsewhere.
Your Christian bashing shows a complete ignorance of history as a whole. The OVERWHELMING majority of conflicts and wars throughout time were either political in nature, or for land, to expand one nation's territories to increase available resources.
The Koran is root of the problem since the 6th century there are no radical Muslims just ones who go by the book and in that mess of hate a perverted Political system is spooled in! If you try to change anything and the whole thing explodes. Either eliminate it or isolate the hate cult to its home country, which most likely is in turmoil. Also Muslims are Permited to lie to us.
Comments (41 - 54) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestIn Islam, we insist, religion and politics are inseparable. As a result, politics dominates our religion -- and our religion has become a cover for tribalism and nationalism.
#2. To: yukon (#1)
We Muslims are the source of our own misery,
#3. To: lito (#2)
Sounds like a self-hating Muslim.
#4. To: yukon (#3)
most of us create our own misery through detrimental action or inaction.
#5. To: lito (#2)
Islam is probably as flawed as Christianity.
#6. To: lito (#4)
Some would say that about 9-11.
#7. To: lito (#2)
Sounds like a self-hating Muslim. Islam is probably as flawed as Christianity.
#8. To: ANV (#5)
It's not the Catholics, Protestants, Babtists, Calvanists, Episcapalians, Mormons, Buddists, Hindus.
#9. To: Sam the Sham (#7)
The Muslims sit in poverty atop the richest cash cow on this planet. That bespeaks a fundamental cultural inability to use wealth productively.
#10. To: lito (#9)
The West has always maintained control by force.
#11. To: lito (#8)
There may be a lot of conflict in the world right now with Islam appearing on one side or the other (or both) but historically Christianity has been responsible for a lot of conflict (really much more death and destruction). Islam is just barely catching up.
#12. To: yukon (#0)
#13. To: Sam the Sham (#7)
Every major power on this planet has a militant Islam based security problem. Every border between the Islamic world and others is a war zone.
The Muslims sit in poverty atop the richest cash cow on this planet. That bespeaks a fundamental cultural inability to use wealth productively.
#14. To: GATOR PAUL (#11)
Are you really this stupid.
#15. To: lito (#9)
Except that Muslims have never really had complete control over that "cash cow." The West has always maintained control by force.
#16. To: It is A Republic, lito (#10)
yeah..... paying the axlerods $70 a barrell really controls them like a leash
#17. To: It is A Republic (#10)
yeah..... paying the axlerods $70 a barrell really controls them like a leash
#18. To: gargantuton (#15)
#19. To: gargantuton, lito (#15)
Except that Muslims have never really had complete control over that "cash cow." The West has always maintained control by force. Excellent point
#20. To: lito (#17)
Trust me????
#21. To: gargantuton (#16)
What impact does Western colonialism have in the region?
#22. To: buckeroo (#12)
why not nation-building in Canada?
#23. To: lito, gargantuon (#9)
Except that Muslims have never really had complete control over that "cash cow." The West has always maintained control by force.
#24. To: Sam the Sham (#23)
#25. To: gargantuton, lito (#16)
What impact does Western colonialism have in the region?
#26. To: Sam the Sham (#23)
Show me where there are Western soldiers occupying Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc.
#27. To: yukon (#22)
I have no human master.
#28. To: lito (#26)
Both Iran and Iraq used to be some of the most advanced parts of the Middle East
#29. To: buckeroo (#27)
I have no human master.
#30. To: yukon, all (#1)
#31. To: It is A Republic, lito (#28)
#32. To: lito, gargantuon (#26)
#33. To: lito (#9)
Except that Muslims have never really had complete control over that "cash cow." The West has always maintained control by force.
#34. To: Sam the Sham (#32)
#35. To: Sam the Sham (#32)
#36. To: Rufus T Firefly (#34)
whatever happened to the Pharaohs
#37. To: lito (#2)
Islam is probably as flawed as Christianity.
#38. To: Moderate Mammal (#37)
The photos above.
#39. To: lito (#8)
but historically Christianity has been responsible for a lot of conflict
#40. To: yukon (#0)
We regularly quote from the Koran, but do not make repentance for our failings as the Koran instructs, by seeking forgiveness of those who we have harmed.
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